Curse

adugabutt · May 13, 2005, 02:03 PM // 14:03

I must admit that I don't have much experience in this field. As soon as I realized that bows' dmg/sec isn't too hot, I switched the build to a swordsman so I could spam the sword skills to compete competantly.

This is what I gathered.

Damage wise (single target) -
due to the poor fire rate of bows, a ranger's dmg doesn't compare with a warriors.

Damage wise (aoe) -
Incind arrows or barrage or whatever you try to do, elementalists have this ground taken hands down.

Interruption wise -
A ranger wont hold a candle to the anti-caster skills of a mesmer.

Healing wise-
Troll unguent is nice for you, but in terms of healing others, healing spring is sorely lacking and mana compared to a caster class is... not so good.

What's left? I hear all these people raving about how some bow rangers provide invaluable help in large group pvp battles, but if another class can do things much better, why would anyone pick rangers over another class? What kinds of builds are there that bow rangers can specialize in and not be outdone by another class? Or is my information from biased warrior ranger-haters?

Pevil Lihatuh · May 13, 2005, 02:59 PM // 14:59

hmmm well lets see...

Distracting shot: fast shooting arrow to interrupt a skill and make it recharge longer
Pin down: Crippled is NOT fun. Cripple the warrior and he can't chase your monk.
Traps: a bit of a pain to put down but extra surprise damage is always good. against a person it can unsettle them for that tiny fraction of a second which can be enough to turn the tide.

catharsis · May 13, 2005, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Ok.. I don't mean to pick on you or anything, but your argument seems to be:

Rangers don't do as much single-target damage as warriors.
Rangers don't do as much AoE damage as elementalists.
Rangers don't heal as well as monks.
Rangers don't interrupt as well as mesmers.

Do I need to explain why this is really specious reasoning?

Ok, I will anyway.

All of the classes you're comparing the ranger to specialize in the style of play they're better at. The ranger may not be able to do any one thing spectacularly (*and this depends on build.. a well-made ranger is far more dangerous than people give them credit for being), but he can do ANYTHING tolerably well.

sulos · May 13, 2005, 03:42 PM // 15:42

rangers may not be the best toe to toe but some may argue that

i think that if you ignore an ranger then you have made a losing mistake. if they casted fav winds and are still in range of the area they will shoot pretty fast, add a prep like fire or poision and say that does lots of damage with regular shots. you shoot kill of the enemy spellcasters like the monk and ele their armor is not as tough as a warrior so easy pickings. you can interupt them and spam powershot, armor pen, and hunter's shot. this will make anyone hurt if not die really fast. i am a r/w and if i am being ignored then i hit frenzy, i take double damage but frenzy will make me a machine gun. rangers don't suck, you just don't know how to use one.

Lasher Dragon · May 13, 2005, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by sulos

rangers don't suck, you just don't know how to use one.

Word.

adugabutt · May 13, 2005, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by catharsis

All of the classes you're comparing the ranger to specialize in the style of play they're better at.

exactly. everyone has something they're best at. so what are rangers best at? if you want to be the optimal help for your team, shouldn't you create a build accordingly? if all of their builds can be overpowered by the same type of build of another class, why make one at all?

the only ranger I've gotten good at is the sword using anti-tank. it can tank as much as warriors and kill warriors pretty fast. but that's not a bow ranger.

of course an ignored ranger can be dangerous, but that goes for all classes.

are you saying that a ranger's true potential comes out when they are interrupting, aoeing, and picking ppl off all at once? i don't think that should be the case, or else you'd be giving all those biased warriors a legit reason to kick rangers off their group.

adugabutt · May 13, 2005, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

Word.

please refrain from idiotic comments like these.

Valerius · May 13, 2005, 04:11 PM // 16:11

ShortBow ( max damage & some nice mods ) + Tigers Fury + Judges Insight + Penetrating Shot and Hunters Shot = 0wnage!

Lasher Dragon · May 13, 2005, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by adugabutt

please refrain from idiotic comments like these.

Don't get upset because you suck at playing a bow-wielding ranger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adugabutt

due to the poor fire rate of bows, a ranger's dmg doesn't compare with a warriors.

Shortbow + halfmoon bow are quite fast, especially with any skill that increases attack rate. If you are trying to use a Shadow Bow or a Horn Bow as your primary weapon then of course you are going to be slow as hell. Do some research before you make sweeping generalizations.

Epinephrine · May 13, 2005, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Well, rangers can focus fire someone without needing to be next to them (advantage over warriors) and can't be prevented from focus firing the target by body blocking (another advantage), plus they can switch to a new target without needing to cover the distance between them. Thus they are good at focus fire, and deal good damage, if not always what a warrior can pump out. They can have more range with a bow than a spell can, and can ditribute conditions at this range, for example crippling the warrior on the monk without needing to run up and hamstring him. The have very cheap attack skills, so can spam them, dealing out conditions more rapidly among targets than a warrior can, making a good fit with spells like epidemic. And yes, the flexibility can be nice too.

adugabutt · May 13, 2005, 04:35 PM // 16:35

ugh! must i spell everything out?

a short bow and half moon take 2 seconds to between fires not to mention a .65 sec delay before actually hitting the target as opposed to a sword or axe's 1.3 second attacks. That's about half the time.

don't forget to add in the occasional misses and preparation casting times and you'll see that a bow's dmg isn't that great considering it's supposed to be the main source of attack.

you bring up a good point with speed skills, the best one being Tiger Fury, and you know the controversy behind that...

don't keep telling me that bows excel in damage. i understand that they do massive short burst damage, which is very useful in pvp, but that's not enough to get them chosen over classes.

adugabutt · May 13, 2005, 04:40 PM // 16:40

good point epinephrine. but does flexibility warrant value in the eyes of the group? afterall, it is a team game.

honestly in your opinion, would you pick a flexible char over a specialized one to fill that last gap in your party?

maybe it's just that i've never actually seen a great bow ranger. i do admit that their flexibility makes them decent in four on four encounters but not that desirable in HoH. maybe i've just never had the privelege of seeing one.

Lasher Dragon · May 13, 2005, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Have you played a Ranger with a max damage bow? With max damage longrange, slow bows AND max damage shortrange, fast bows? All with mods? Just asking, because the 20 W/Ele I play with whines all the time that I kill things before he even gets a chance to swing on it.

adugabutt · May 13, 2005, 04:51 PM // 16:51

well... i have all the grips, i'm missing sundering string and shocking, so I'm using cold dmg string at the moment. i'm still fairly new to the whole bow thing though.

you seem happy with your build. do you suggest focusing on a damage oriented build?

sulos · May 13, 2005, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

Have you played a Ranger with a max damage bow? With max damage longrange, slow bows AND max damage shortrange, fast bows? All with mods? Just asking, because the 20 W/Ele I play with whines all the time that I kill things before he even gets a chance to swing on it.

word. and i don't think i need to post it again, rangers don't suck, you suck at using the ranger.... just because you like the mindless run up and bash because thinking hurts or the i can cast spells that destroy everything kind of charater doesn't mean that rangers are not a powerful class and are not useful in pvp.

Epinephrine · May 13, 2005, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by sulos

word. and i don't think i need to post it again, rangers don't suck, you suck at using the ranger.... just because you like the mindless run up and bash because thinking hurts or the i can cast spells that destroy everything kind of charater doesn't mean that rangers are not a powerful class and are not useful in pvp.

This is not constructive at all. There is no call to use that kind of tone; saying that it might not suit his playstyle, or that he may not be using them correctly is fine, but can we stop insulting people?

adugabutt · May 13, 2005, 05:07 PM // 17:07

sulos, you're harping like a little baby. seems i touched a sensitive spot. the sad part is, you still haven't said HOW they are better. looks like you need to work a little on your communication skills.

if you need convincing about my skills, give me a r/w lvl 15 and with a sword will beat your pvp built ranger.

you seem to me to be one of those annoying rangers in pvp who think leave the group right before dying saying "my group sucked"

Lasher Dragon · May 13, 2005, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Well, really, it depends on what you are wanting to do with your ranger. Right now I have all my skills focused in Expertise & Marksmanship, with the extra mostly in Wilderness Survival, and some in Beast Mastery. Note that I am strictly playing PvE until I have completed it and unlocked whatever I want to unlock. If you want to see my weaponry, check the Screenshots forum, the Weaponry thread. My style is completely bow-centric. Up until around 13th or 14th level IIRC I carried Sever Artery & Gash and would switch between sword & shield and a bow. Once you get up around that high though, you will never do as much damage with a melee weapon as you will with a bow - the enemies simply have too much armor. So I switched to all bow. My favorite skills are Pin Down, Distracting Shot, Hunter's Shot, Apply Poison, Penetrating Shot, Lightning Reflexes, Frenzy, Incendiary, etc..

Also I like Healing Spring. Currently I believe mine heals 33 points every 2 secs for 10 secs - for big fights I will hit lightning reflexes and plant the spring right under the warrior. They pound on him, the spring just heals him right back up.

If there are a lot of tough enemies, I also like to spam Poison on them all. As soon as I see them, I Apply Poison, then when that is just about done I hit Lightning Reflexes and Tab Space, Tab Space, Tab Space, etc. - soon they are all nice and poisoned.

dikdiputs · May 13, 2005, 07:49 PM // 19:49

According to the OP, ranger's can't specialize in anything but capable of doing everything. Isn't that power in itself because you have a way with dealing with every possible class? Versatility is what the ranger is knwon for isnt it.

Tavenlen · May 13, 2005, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Okay, maybe I'm missing something. I play a R/E, strictly PvE. I have a max damage bow and no Elite skills. The damage skills I use are Power Shot and Penetrating Shot. I outdamage every warrior I have been in a PUG with on every enemy that we've come up against. Right now I'm only at Ventari's Refuge, so I may be slightly better equipped than some people, but still, I don't see how Warriors outdamage Rangers, at least in PvE.

Also, the only Warriors I have seen that have a prayer of soloing a mission when their party members all die, is the W/Mo's. I had to do three missions in a row solo, practically, because people make very unwise decisions. Anyway, I could have this totally wrong or have just been paired with some not-so-great Warriors, but this is just what I have noticed.